Curse

Rera · Nov 13, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

I'm surprised Moddok Crevice is an issue. I didn't even bother standing under the bridge or bringing Shields Up, I just healed the spikes while my searing nukers cleaned up.

Drought + dazed = gg?

Shiro + Spoil Victor + Wild Blow = gg?

I'm happy with Nightfall's relative difficulty. I'm tired of seeing people in late-game areas who have no clue how to play the game. The way I see it, you can either get frustrated and quit, or you can learn something and beat the mission.

Jaml · Nov 13, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

... The way I see it, you can either get frustrated and quit, or you can learn something and beat the mission.

Exactly there lies the problem. Guess what option alot of non hardcore players will choose. I already lost guildies to that problem. Why do you think games today have difficulty settings with an easy setting that allows nearly everyone to enjoy the game and a hard setting for the hardcore? Not everyone has some 1000 of hours to learn all the counters to specific builds. Nightfall is constantly on a hard setting with no way to scale it down for inexperienced or new players.
I think an exagerated difficulty will hurt Guildwars in the long term and lead to a smaller user base wich i find sad since the game is great.

Kook~NBK~ · Nov 13, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

With the different strategies needed to beat the various missions, everyone can say "buh-bye!" to the cookie cutter builds. And that's a good thing. (More Mesmer love for mine!

)

Heroes are better than henchies, for people who know how to set them up and use them properly. For new players, learning 4 or 5 professions all at once is probably a bit overwhelming.

I've hench/hero'd my way up to the Grand Court, and haven't found anything that I couldn't do without a little tweak here or there in my tactics & build. The only thing I needed a PUG for was the Bonus on Moddok Crevice tonight, since them runners kept taking off before I could get in range to slow them down (I think they fixed that, tho).

Now, I'm stuck! Tried teh Grand Court Mission with henchies - Got 2 portals capped and then it was a stalemate for about 40 minutes. Meh, no point going on with that. Tried with PUG's (HEY GUYS! DON'T LET THEM CAP THE MIDDLE!!!!!) 5 or 6 times. And so far, not even close. Ahh well, I've got guildies who are almost there & a couple past it, hopefully we can get together and knock the snot out of it.

0mar · Nov 13, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Nightfall only has one mission where you really need to metagame (Gates of Madness). Every mission can be beaten by bringing a balanced build, which includes some defense and quite a bit of offense. Stance tanks are not the way warriors are meant to be played, IMO. Set them up for damage, with skills like galrath/silverwing, evis-executioners, etc etc. Water eles are much better than the traditional arcane echo-meteor storm archetype. They slow the enemy down tremendously, making it much harder for the big hitters to reach the squishies, deal some decent damage and are just more useful all-around than the ele who spams exhaustion spells until they are bottomed out. You pretty much need an interupter as well, whether it's Mesmer or Ranger doesn't make that much of a difference IMO. The rest is just smart agro control and protecting the squishies.

Most people who complain the missions/quests are too hard are too stubborn in their archetypes of what classes should do (eg stance tanks). That, and their skill bars are probably full of garbage skills like healing breeze. Look at the skill lists, get the most efficient spells and just roll through the missions. Only one mission really requires knowledge of what's in it, and, ergo, a special build for it.

KoalaMeatPie · Nov 13, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Personally, the hardness of the last few mission are EXTREAMLY refreshing. This isn't a child's game, You need experience and skill, not just *Bash Shiro untill he drops*

Plus, going threw something ahrd is rewarding.

arcanemacabre · Nov 13, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoalaMeatPie

Plus, going threw something ahrd is rewarding.

That is the best, and truest part. My favorite missions in Prophecies were the desert missions. Thirsty River took me a few times to beat, and believe me, I was frustrated as hell when I lost. But guess what: when we finally beat it, that was one of the best feelings in the world... true victory.

Seamus Finn · Nov 13, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Ummm... Thirsty is solo-able. Anyhow, I do think that the 2nd to last mission is hard enough without real people that can kite, but everything else is a breeze for a decent build. Of course, new players will get trashed repeatadly in certain missions, but I felt that the difficulty didn't jump much till like end of Vabbi maybe and even then it wasn't that hard. And since when should you expect to jsut pick up a game and own face? Learning curve anyone?

arcanemacabre · Nov 13, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Ummm... Thirsty is solo-able.

Wow! Nowai!

/rollseyes

shadowmist · Nov 13, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

The way I see it, Prot Spirit is the most under-used powerful skill in PvE. It lasts a good while, and it makes boss damage negligible. Add that on and a lot of the missions become a lot easier.

As for the learning curve, I know mine and a few other people have very steep learning curves. (we learn fast for those who are confused) That, combined with the fact that game mechanics for most mmorpg work pretty much the same, made GW an easy game the first time I picked it up. But I agree that for people with no prior experience with mmorpg games some basic mechanics might be beyond them. (I know a guy who had 3 of the old major runes on as a hammer war...)

Makkert · Nov 13, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

as previous posters already proved, the answer is simply 'no'.

its not too hard. its harder then Factions probably. its harder then most of Prophecies (remember how many failed at THK at first?). It just takes a bit of knowledge and a bit of thinking how to beat the missions.
I 'heroway-ed' 90% of the missions.

garethporlest18 · Nov 13, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

I'm going to say a few words, from something I just figured out, and am happy I was intelligent enough to come to the decision. Nightfall is now easy, even in Torment.

Olias Rit Hero.

Cebe · Nov 13, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Actually I feel NF is easier than factions, by a long shot. Sure, the penultimate mission is a bit tricky when it comes to Shiro but he doesn't even use Meditation of the Reaper.

If a build does not work versus an individual...change the build. Use your knowledge of the skills in GW and find a way to counter it. For instance, when I did Rilhon Refuge for the first time my ele got utterly pwnd by The Drought. The second time I took Maelstrom. Now, as we know from reading the skill description, and from fighting Ice Imps in the southern shiverpeaks, Maelstrom interrupts any spells cast within it. Thus, casting Maelstrom on The Drought causes it to be interrupted on pretty much every skill it casts...because it's too bone idle to move out of it. If you're not an ele with maelstrom...that's why you take Zhed!

[skill]Maelstrom[/skill] = PWND Drought

Braggi · Nov 13, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

IMO the players who find NF easy are those who have used their characters for multiple tasks, not just using the same build all the time. My guildmate is not finding much difficulty in figuring the best builds for his Tyrian warrior and heroes. I, on the other hand, have to keep asking him which build to use on my dervish's heroes, as my build-changing experience is very low.

True, and prophecies was not designed for ever changing and adapting builds. Removing the cost from redistributing attribute points was a patch, remember? Roleplay idea in PvE characters was conventional (attribute point spread being part of the development); the patch synced PvE and PvP, as the character development part is now just your available skill set...

Maybe this concept is also a mental barrier for new players. In a RPG your character is usually not just a template that you have to set up individually for each new adventure...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

Players new to GW with NF are without that advice unless they belong to a guild with experienced helpful members. With the addition of heroes, they are worse off than anyone who started with Prophecies or Factions. For their heroes to be effective, they need a crash course in skill synergy.

Yup. A new and Nighfall-only player is definitely hampered and has a hard time making his heroes usefull. On the other hand, long time players slap a standard build with Elite on their hero without thinking or further cost. Then they complain that the game is too easy... ^^

Heroes may make you revisit old chapters too. Even if you don't have a main character with a class, you now may need some skills for your hero group. Only the players who have every class and elite skill anyway are not affected, but they would be the ones who needed more content most...

Rex the Unloving · Nov 13, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

you think the drought are hard, try the quest from Mirza where you, your party, and some veldrunner centaurs go up against waves of a crapload of Margonites, sure i beat it with heroes+hench, but its still hard. well i thought it was.

edit: never thought the drought were hard.

arcanemacabre · Nov 13, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rex the Unloving

you think the drought are hard, try the quest from Mirza where you, your party, and some veldrunner centaurs go up against waves of a crapload of Margonites, sure i beat it with heroes+hench, but its still hard. well i thought it was.

OMG, yeah Battle for Turai's Procession. Was worthy of the Master Difficulty title. So far, the only Master Difficulty quest that I would actually name as such. Well, at least if you're not expecting it...

garethporlest18 · Nov 13, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

So the Keeper quests weren't worth [Master]?

Avarre · Nov 13, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

I soloed twelve melee margonites in the Turai quest after all my hench died ><

Battle of Turai's, along with Breaking the Broken, seem easiest done by ambushing single groups rather than tanking the whole mass. Then again, a full player group with proper skills (you can only have three tweaked heroes, after all) would probably have little trouble.

Overall, I preferred Troubled Keeper as an interesting quest, though, simply because you can actually fail it. Most of the others are attritionable if needed.

arcanemacabre · Nov 13, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

So the Keeper quests weren't worth [Master]?

I wouldn't know, haven't made it into any of the Torment areas. I did, after all, say "So far..."

garethporlest18 · Nov 13, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I wouldn't know, haven't made it into any of the Torment areas. I did, after all, say "So far..."

Yeah I figured that was the case but still had to ask just in case you thought those quests from the depths of hell were easy

.

arcanemacabre · Nov 13, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Yeah I figured that was the case but still had to ask just in case you thought those quests from the depths of hell were easy

.

Oh, I'm sure there's some pretty difficult missions and quests coming up. Then again, I'd expect there to be toward the end of any game, ya know? Hehe, but yeah, so far, Battle for Turai's Procession is about the hardest thing I've seen, be it quest or mission.